Problem with z position

Hi everyone, Ive new problem with TB AP2<br /><br />Id like to move my characters left hand, which is behind the body. But i want it to be in front. I know this is stupid problem, which i should solved my self. But ive tried everything, and nothing works. In top or side view, i cant or dont know how to move only hand (i have some control points there), and in data view,when i change the z-pos value, my all character falls appart. Hand, is behind the arm, and when i take it to the front i can see all lines, which should stay behind. I can also move the arm, but then i should also move the body, second hand and omfg.

If somebody knows the solution for my problem, please respond :wink:

It doesn`t solve my problem Lily. Let me explain more specific.

This is how the hand looks normally:
http://iv.pl/images/28402028250712855803.png

This is how it looks when is on the body:
http://iv.pl/images/39816445000602573121.png

And this is how it looks when i use transform tool and alt+down
http://www.iv.pl/images/14900490451778627974.png

Neither is good. I need hand to be in front of the belly, and behind the forearm.

In fact i think this is often problem, when i need to move some body part over the other, and i dont know how to get it to front without the effect showes on images.

Come on, i stuck on this. Nobody knows the solution?

Why not try to nudge the lower arm too.
Or if there is a patch…
A screenshot that also shows the puppets hierachi would help giving advice in this sort of matter. Also if you use Animate or Animatr Pro.

Best regards
Ivar

If you don’t use patches, it might be an idea to watch video tutorial pack 9 patches.
For your case a copy of the color fill could do the trick.
Make a copy of the forearm on a new layer and add it to the same peg as the forearm you already have. Copy over the pivot and delete the line.
You can do the same with the hand if thats preferable.

The video tutorial gives you a more neat outline that gives a more drawn look with trimmed outline, entering the main shape when rotation is big.

Patches and masks are needed when you have a layer behind layer behind layer hierarchy when it should suddenly appear in front.

If you move your whole arm in front of the body The problem will probably occur in the shoulder.

Best regards
Ivar

Hi Ivar
I know the tutorial an i use the patches on knees and elbows. Making a patch on the hand doesnt do the magic. If it helps id have to make patches between hand and the body, right?<br /><br /><br />Here is the cut out, unfortunettly im from poland and this is language i use. I hope my legend helps
http://iv.pl/images/43127110898104028163.png

Legend:
Tors - Torso
reka - arm
przedramie - forearm
dłon - hand
cialo - body
l - left
r - right

Moving whole arm will destroy connection with body. Right arm is under the body, left ar is over the body.

On more IMPORTANT thing. The character on the photo is flip vertically, so the left is right and right is left (arms and legs).

Omg it`s getting really complicated :smiley: I hope i explain it fine.

layers must be located according to the animation that will be performed (network module in the pro), then you can safely change position z according to the drawing you need,
solution moving arm and hand in z position http://vimeo.com/2998308

@adelmo83 thanks for reply. Correct me if im wrong. Between the keypose, i have to move the layers in network view forward and backward?

Its working for me right now, and dont ruin the patches (At least in this cause)<br /><br />I hope itll be working in other parts.

Problem solved :slight_smile: Thanks adelmo!

Omg, it s not over yet :smiley:

One more question. I understand that i can move z axis on network view, but then i cant change it with timeline. For example: I want to have the right hand in front of the body on 30 frame, but on 40 i want it to be behind the body.
In the network view i cant change it without ruining the patches, but i cant do time changes

It s hard to explain so i enclose my short animation. The problem is when the chacter i sitting and taking the water pipe. I want the hand to be in front of the body and the water pipe. I f there is something more what i can show you. Please let me know.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vPEL-iEIKAo Something is wrong with this link. You have to copy it manually.

Btw. Any opinions about animation? It s my first! :smiley:

Hi again
The layers as long as they are 100% parallel cannot be both in front and back at the same time. Thats why one make patches. Putting one behind and another in front. If you made your puppet in paper the paper can twist, and that solves the problem. In Animate Pro thats possible. This can solve some problems but add others. Intersections of layers can really look odd if they are not planned carefully.
Anyhow, just for the fun of it I made a short screen capture trying out your problem. No patches were added, so the layers show clearly.
The pipe is here a blue bottle. To use this teqnichue, It may be an idea to copy your arm layers and create a separate object and set the actual part in the time line to no exposure for your arm in the big hierarchy.
And then use this extra arm just for theese frames.
If you use the main hierarchy remember to add keyframe before and after this operation in the timeline. You can later copy theese keyframes to return to the 3D values from before the “nudging” in a simple way.
Please don’t look upon this suggestion of mine as a technique but as a hint to look for practical solutions of your own at moments were you meet problems. Look forward to see your project. A scene full of banana peels hints to major injuries,or?

Best regards
-Ivar

OOOOPS
I forgot to post the link:
Here it is:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bNl-G7YqoAQ&feature=youtube_gdata_player

again

-Ivar

Just half the link went active.
I try again. If not this work just copy it over.
-Ivar



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bNl-G7YqoAQ&feature=youtube_gdata_player

A portrait of Lotte Reiniger the developer of puppet animation.
I just wanted to share in case you don’t know her works already.

-Ivar

And here the link

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x4wc6s_the-art-of-lotte-reiniger-1953-1971_shortfilms

Thanks again Ivar :smiley: Another time you save my life :smiley:

This technic works great :slight_smile:

Thanks for the video it really helped
Without your advices i`d probably lost hope long time ago :smiley:

Also thanks for the movie about Lotte Reiniger. it was very interesting.

What do you think about my animation? Any critical remarks? :slight_smile:

One more thought from me.

Its pritty strange that changin z position of body parts is so hard to do. I thought that its common activity. Almost all character movement need this. So there isnt any easy way to do it?<br /><br />a) Network view dont let me changing things in time
b) alt+ + ruining the patches
c) Ivar technic with perspective view is not perfect, like he said. It dont work with all body parts. <br />d) moving on top view also ruining patches<br /><br />My character has all body parts on one level on z-axis. Exactly like in tutorial. So how can i give it something to hand, since the body and the body are on the same level? And when i move them its ruining all patches. I dont get it<br /><br />Im really confused. Did i design my character wrong? If id do something diffrent this processd be easier? Maybe there is another way to make a patches, when they dont get ruined by any move on z-axis? I cant imagine, that so advance software like AP2, dont have way to do such easy and obvious thing?

Hi Lilly.
Thanks for another solution, but i dont get it. What do You mean by adjusting the line? What should i do with them?
Also when i duplicate lower arm and move one layer forward, and other backward its breaking the patches…
Maybe there is the chapter in manual, which i cant fin about this? It s gettin really annoying :frowning:

Hi again dominiki
Remembered now( a bit late) a tutorial for TBStudio where a smart solution for picking
up items is described.
Posted the link below. This eliminate the z-position problem by putting prop and hand on one drawing and then swap drawings when needed.

http://www.toonboom.com/products/toon-boom-studio/how-to/tipsandtricks/picking.php

When it comes to critique your animation I am not really qualified.
I am a sculptor with interest in animation. I have only occasionally been doing film work as prop maker, though in a variety of kinds from soft props watches weapons cameras in mbf/silicone not to hurt stunt actors,-to animatable silicone props. But my main occupation is carving marble sculptures and enlarging monument maquettes to full size.
So I have no education in filmmaking. I have occasionally worked with a young director drawing storyboards so, thats my only experience in “film grammar”. So keep this in mind for what I can help with.
When it comes to TB software I have used it since 2006, starting with TBStudio. I have a course with TB Harmony in 2010 but have for the rest just used and figured out the software on my own following tutorials and reading the forums. So my advices will not be of a kind that can support a studio production. So to have better formulated reactions on your animation it will be better for you to post such request to -Share Your Work- part of this forum on a new thread. If you do I will give you mine opinion there.

Best regards
Ivar

Hi Ivar
unfortunately this isnt solution.<br />Yes i can give my character a prop to hand this way. But i want the hand with the prop to go in front of the body, i have the same problem with patches. So its not solving my problem :frowning:

I m loosing hope. Isnt there a way to move hand from backwards of the body to be in fornt of the body without ruining the patches?<br />This should be so obvious. Do you have any idea, who can help me with this?<br />What are you doing when you want to move characters left hand from behind the body to front of the body?

I m really depressed about this problem, cause it stops my progress for a week now :frowning:

I show you a screen which explain my problem:

http://iv.pl/viewer.php?file=09555753649741074613.png

Right arm of the character is behind the body, but lower arm and hand are in front of the body. This is exactly what i want to achieve (without braking patches ofc). I dont know if this animation has been made in TB AP2, but this is the effect i am talking about.