I have been testing my work n different playback applications and notice that the playback speed varies. In quicktime the speed seems to be the fastest but slows down when played back through any browser. I am trying to get a settings that will work in any medium… quicktime, itune, webrowers and DVD. What is the standard …I was using 25fps …but it seems that 30fps works better. What is the standard here …will 30fps work for DVDs or will it be too fast. Also what is the standard camera size settings…I’m currently using 540X720 . And I noticed that playback with a wideframe systems start to show things not intended to be viewable. Can someone provide some guidance here?
Finally …I notice that when I use a PEG with the camera to pan my scenes … the background images (buildings, furnitures etc) start to tremble …has anyone had the same issue?
Most people animate at 24 FPS and let the appropriate software make the frame rate conversions depending on the distribution medium. Most video and DVD is NTSC or PAL each of which has a different standard. If you sync everything to 24 FPS it should be fine when converted to NTSC or PAL.
If you are concerned with blocking material from being exposed in a widescreen player you might consider adding a black frame mask.
As to image tremble. Are you using bitmapped images and if so are you zooming in or out with them. Vector art is infinitely scalable but bitmap images are not. If you try to scale them too much or you move the camera too fast (too few frames for the length of the move) you can get those tremble results. -JK
24 fps is a film resolution and has to be converted to video resolution which is 25 fps for pal and 30 fps (actually 29.97) for an ntsc.
tiger,
a trembling of backgrounds may be the image size issue. are they the bitmaps or vector drawings?
some viewers show the side areas too, alas. i noticed this playing my swf-animations in web browsers’ flash plugins.
i currently don’t have any explanations for this, but one may work around this by cover ing these areas with a thick black frame, framing the exact viewable area.
cheers,
rob
Thanks for the feedback. First let me just provide some more information. I have tested these outputs on a desktop running an AMD 64 with a 128K video card. In addition I have a new Tablet PC from Gateway running a Intel centrino with a 64K ATI card.
The results from both are the same … so I’m taking the hardware issue out of the equation.
For the trembling issue:
I am using no BitMaP images. All drawings are hand-drawn by myself in TBS. I had this issue when I used a WACOM tablet …and its the same using the tablet machine. Again the issue is when I attach a PEG to the camera to pan or zoom in … as the camera moves …the images start to tremble …and stops the minute the camera stops. Buildings, characters etc …if you ever watch the cartoon ED, EDD and EDDY …you’ll see a similar effect. Why is this happening?
I can always fix the issue of whats shown on different size screens …but the speed is another issue. It seems that when I playback with Quicktime its a bit faster and I wondered if the browser settings may be at play here. In addition it seems that 30fps is the best playback speed that’ll satisfy all mediums. And this is drawing each frame on 2’s (i.e expose each drawing for 2 frames) recommended by several books I’ve read.
Can 30fps work with DVD? Will it be too fast, will it even be able to play in most standard DVD players?
I wish I could send you guys a quick piece of my work to look at.
tiger,
when your whole film is on 2’s (or other even counts) and the whole animation is not too long, try maybe to reduce the frame exposures to 1’s and make the export frame rate 15 fps, then export your movie and check if the images still tremble.
it’s some work (be sure to back up your original project first), but it could work, provided you also reimport the sound track for the proper audio frame rate.
just an idea…
cheers,
rob
There are several reasons you may be getting this effect. (1) If you move something too quickly, IE if you move the camera from one position to another in too few frames. The way to adjust this is to increase the number of exposures used to execute a camera move. (2) Also the Ed,Edd,Eddie effect is created by a loose style of redrawing inbetweens. Almost a slight shift in registration. (3) Additionally you need to look closely at your function curves for the various parameters you are keying on your peg. You may be introducing a slight variance that you don’t even realize. (4) Strobing is most often caused by timing problems so you may want to introduce some cushions at the extremes of your movements.
As to your 30 FPS, that is better and more flexible to work with then dropping below 24 FPS. So you might consider animating on 3’s. And as I posted before most editing, compositing and conversion software will make the appropriate adjustment of your 24 FPS work for distribution at NTSC or PAL standards. This is normally automatic in the software when you select how you want to distribute your media. Most theatrical movies are made at 24 FPS and not re-timed for TV or DVDs just adjusted by conversion software based on the desired media distribution channel. -JK
jk,
it sounds plausible. are you sure it can’t be the software data size performance?
if yes, then it makes sense to smoothen the frame transitions.
now it’s an additional work, in any case.
cheers,
rob
Gester thanks …I guess your suggestion would prove that the issue develops at some point as I increase the amount of frames. If I follow your suggestion and it works …I’d still be dis-satisfied because …at what stage does it begin? In fact what I quickly did (based on your suggestion) was just draw a blurb … increase the exposure to 300 …PEG and pan the camera and I observe the same wobbly effect. This issue is not new … last year I was able to send a file to Mathiue and he was unable to resolve the issue.
15fps (rather than 30fps) is great to reduce file size if your working on the web …but for DVD will that work?
Please try to understand …I’m trying to standardize my work … so that when I create a file I can easily output my work in any format desired. TBS by itself …working perfectly is already labor intensive.
Am I the only one observing this?
Is there some settings I’m failing to make in either TBS or my machine that will make this go away?
e-mail me at lifo25@yahoo.com and I’ll send you a file to look at just to see if this is normal.
tiger,
i was indeed presuming that it could be software performance issue. i can’t exclude hardware, too.
but the suggestion of jk is maybe more valuable, because he’s more experienced with production issues.
as for frame rates: anything between 12 and 30 is imho ok, not only for the web. i’ve checked the wonderful chris hinton’s ‘nibbles’ and it’s a 15fps production, which won already many awards worldwide…
cheers,
rob
I’v done some experimenting to try and fix the wobbling and found that it actually wobbles more the slower you move the camera. Or put another way …when the camera pans quickly … the less time you have to focus on the wobbling. Its still pretty much there fast or slow …just less noticeable when the camera pans quickly. Obviously thats not a fix …because there will be times depending on the effect I’m trying to create that I will want to use either.
I’ve also looked at the function curves …tried to pan the camera using just the function editor and I have the very same wobbling result! Can you explain the variance I could possibly create here.
And let me explain this again …If I peg and move an element …no problem …if I peg and move/pan the camera …everything wobbles until the camera stops!!
Today I uninstalled TBS on my machine …went to TBS website and downloaded and re-installed TBS just to make sure I wasn’t missing some upgrade that could have been added recently. I’ve tried to create very simplistic blurd drawings, exposed it for 20, 30, 50 frames and panned with the camera …and walla …it still wobbles! I’ve toyed around with the function editor …panned fast/slow nothing helps! I’ve tried it on my Gateway Tablet PC with XP tablet Pentium M 740 and 64K ATI video card.
I’ve tried it on my AMD64 Desktop, 128kATI card and used my Graphire WACOM tablet and my Intous3 Wacom tablet …it still wobbles. I tried to use just the mouse to create squares …it still wobbles.
Open GL to 3D direct, … maxed memory, set to better quality checked all the Rendering options under preferences (including smooth PEG) …what GIVES?
hi tiger,
i’m just watching your animation:
you’ve drawn the blue flag a-new in a loop, right? the same seems to be with the trembling lines.
look exactly: not all lines tremble, only some of them. i suppose that they are slightly varying ther position from frame to frame or at least they seem to do so.
the sidewalk outlines have generally a constant camera pan/zoom smoothness, only the far left line trembles a bit at the end of the film, as if drawn with another thickness.
my suspicion is that the trembling lines are not always at their original positions from frame to frame.
btw, you’ve managed to render the main char difficult movements (due to the frontal perspective) pretty well 
cheers,
rob
p.s. why is the other guy vanishing? 
First let me clarify …everything wobbles …the buildings…the sidewalk …the characters …everything! Your only looking at the swf file …and I’ll explain why you might be fooled by it.
When you pan quickly …like I explained below …the wobbling is less distinct. In addition …if you have a large object …that occupies most of the scene … the wobbling is not as distinct. The backgroung objects are just one drawing with multiple exposures.
Of-course I’d expect to see variations/movement if I were re-drawing these frames 300 times! Please don’t think thats what your seeing
The exception is the flag which I tried to create a wave effect (because naturally flags move with the wind). But even that wobbles as well.
This brings me to the next issue …when you have characters …objects moving …and pan with the camera …they also wobble.
Only …those are less noticeable because now you have a movement embedded with the wobbling. If for example you have a character running and the ground was slightly moving wouldn’t you expect that the un-trained eye would focus on the character …and ignore this movement? Thats what your seeing. Unless you’ve replayed, re-rendered the scene in as many variation as I have …would you have picked this up.
Just look at the high rise buildings in the background …those fixed, smaller objects expose the wobbling the best.
Because you have so much going on in the scene your watching this may seem like its not a big deal. But imagine a calmer situation …for example you wanted to create a scene where your showing the audience a messy room for example …and your just panning fixed objects. Can you now see how this issue would be a problem?
Now the audience would pick up book, table, lamp, etc wobbling because now there is no distractions.
In a way I prefer that …“everything wobbles” …because it tells me that I have some generic issue …some setting that once I’ve resolved it …everything will get fixed.
Finally the other guy is vanishing because I’m not done with the scene …
Animating the frontal guy was a learning experience. He’s not exactly coming towars the camera … and so TBS did not interlope his size.
I wanted the scene to move from an elevated perspective to the ground level. Thats why I panned the camera … so in addition to the character translational movement I had to also create another PEG to increase his size as he moves forward. Else it would look as if the camera was elevated throughout the entire scene.
tiger,
now wait a moment!
1. what i see is an exported animation, a ready .swf file. and i see wobbling only in the parts of it. the sidewalks have a steady performance (except for this far left line i mentioned before). tha back buildings wobble at the most, you’re right. but the characters don’t wobble at all!
2. your camera pan and zoom are pretty slow and smooth. there is no rapid camera movement.
3. i believe you that the backgrounds are only multiple exposures of one drawing.
what i see are the additional movements of the flag and the characters.
then try the following:
back up your animation, remove the flag and all moving parts ( hehe, black sabbath’s ‘all moving parts stand still’ ) i.e. the flag and the chars, and check the camera pan/zoom only on your backgrounds.
if it fails to be steady, there is some generic issue, as you presume. if not, it has something to do with other moving elements in the scene.
cheers,
rob
Gester,
Trust me …everything wobbles! The sidewalk appears steady because its so big. Some 30% of it is not even in the scene, and that was intended based on the effect I wanted to create. The character walking wobbles … but you won’t pick that up with him moving side-to-side constantly. Look at the smaller cup straw items on the sidewalk you’ll see them shaking. But like I said before the smaller buildings in the background expose this problem the best.
The camera pan is slow …thats why you even notice the wobbling… had it been faster …like I said before you’d never see it. And your suggestion …I’ve tried it already and prove to myself what I’m trying to explain to you. I tried to draw just a single object and pan in on it over and over again with different settings in an attempt to fix this issue. If you want I could send you another brief snippet showing this phenomenom even more distinctly.
I appreciate your input …but If I sound a bit frustrated its because I’m looking for help here and your post is clouding the issue …and at times suggest I have no problem!
Mathiue already received a file from me where he acknowledge this issue and to date has no answer for it. Maybe someone can suggest some feature I’m overlooking that can correct the problem. I don’t think this is hardware related, nor do I believe its timing, production flaw etc.
You have a still object with multiple exposures …you PEG and pan the camera on it …fast or slow … and that image should not wobble! Thats all there is to this issue, and i don’t want to over-complicate it
I’m looking for some preference settings some tools settings in TBS or maybe some changes in Windows XP as the answer here…rather than suggestion that I’ve mis-timed my scene!
And because I have the same result on very separate machines I think that hardware is not the issue.
(Sorry, please ignore my prior post, I haven’t a clue as to the cause of your problem) -JK
Thanks a bunch for taking some of your time to look at this for me.
that’s what amazed me in the first place. i currently don’t have time to check this performance issue, but as i see it, the far fetched explanations don’t apply if the problem is so obvious in the simplest execution.
i’d say: wait for mathieu to feedback this (and bug him to and fro), because it’s either really generic or we’re all missing some general setting.
cheers,
rob
If this does not occur whe you pan the camera …can you create rectangular object (like a sky-scraper) expose it for 50 to 100 frames Peg the camera and zoom in on the object. Then export it to a swf file. Send both the swf file and the TBS zipped file to me so I can look at your out-put at home. I’m assuming in your case the fixed object does not wobble. (Make the object with black outline and say …colored yellow that way I can better see whats happening)
Maybe just maybe I can see something thats different from what I have here at home. Like I said before I’m thinking that this is some TBS setting that I’m just not making …or maybe some WINDOWS XP setup thats causing this.
I’m at lifo25@yahoo.com
Thanks